Pankaj Mishra and Adam Thirlwell Discuss Utopia, Terror, and Art's Future in 2016 Conversation

On September 20, 2016, writer Pankaj Mishra and novelist Adam Thirlwell engaged in a wide-ranging conversation about utopian thinking, terror, and the future of art. Their discussion took place aboard Fluxland, a floating sculpture and interactive sound-piece on London's River Thames created by artist Cyril de Commarque. Mishra argued that utopian visions, originating with Enlightenment figures like Denis Diderot, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, and Voltaire, inherently contain contradictions that lead to violence. He traced a direct line from the French Revolution's secular ideals to modern extremist movements like the Islamic State, noting that universalist projects—whether communist, Nazi, or neoliberal—inevitably involve coercion. Thirlwell questioned whether a desire for justice could exist without utopian terror, citing figures like José Martí. Mishra acknowledged context-specific justice but emphasized that Enlightenment concepts, while potent, carry a dangerous 'other side' often ignored. The dialogue explored how art forms migrate, with Mishra suggesting that contemporary conditions—diminished faith in progress, fragile institutions—may not foster vital art. He pointed to writers like Václav Havel, Bohumil Hrabal, and Czesław Miłosz as critics of utopian history. The conversation, originally published in ArtReview's January & February 2017 issue, examined whether the novel, with its ironic playfulness, remains relevant in an era of monologic journalism.